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Home My WebLink AboutMinutes 03/19/98 BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS EAGLE, COLORADO RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS FORM 50 HOECKEt:S 387869 PUBLIC HEARING MARCH 19, 1998 Present: James Johnson, Jr. George "Bud" Gates Johnnette Phillips James Hartmann Sara J, Fisher Chairman Commissioner Commissioner County Administrator Clerk to the Board This being a scheduled Public Hearing the following items were presented to the Board of County Commissioners for their consideration: ZS-236-86, Category III, Vail Ski Area Chairman Johnson, presented file number ZS-236-86, Category III, Vail Ski Area, expansion hearing, He stated this matter was continued from March 10, 1998. He stated they would begin by taking public comment. Tamara Nottingham Underwood, resident of Minturn since 1968, stated she does work for Vail Associates and stated this has everything to do with skiing and nothing to do with real estate, The valley needs to stay competitive, She stated this may be an industrial recreational development but it is what keeps herself and thousands of others employed, She stated this is what makes it feasible for her to live here and to raise her family here, She stated she supports CAT III because the valley and Vail Associates needs this development to be competitive Chairman Johnson asked that no demonstrations be made after the speakers so that they might move through this more rapidly. Bill Brice, here to speak on behalf of the Vail Valley Convention and Tourism Bureau, stated it is their position that tourism is what makes and drives this valley, It is their view that VA has been a good corporate citizen and they have taken great measures to improve this community and valley, They feel that V A will remain a good corporate citizen. Keeping Vail at the forefront is vital. With a lack of Colorado Statewide tourism, it is projects like this that will keep us and our economies viable, He spoke to the comments of last week and the questioning of integrity of V A, the Forest Service and some elected officials. He stated he also heard comments regarding shutting off the tap of growth, He doesn't believe that is feasible, He believes we can maintain a good quality of life and voiced the Vail Valley Convention & Tourism Burear's support CAT III, Bob Slagel, Town Clerk of Red Cliff, spoke to the letters previously sent to the Board, He spoke to honor and the vision of 1962, He stated they made a commitment, They revisited that commitment in 1986, He asked they keep their previous commitment and allow V A to go ahead with CAT III but also encourage them to make a commitment in reference to any further expansion. That they say no further requests for building upon the mountain and private considerations. He stated if it does continue to go further, they won't have a future, William Beck, from Red Cliff, born in Leadville, raised in Red Cliff stated he has watched Vail grow from a sheep camp and can't say that it's pretty, He grew up on Vail Mountain and knows it well, He stated an intermediate skier who starts at Vail will have to ski 1 to 2 hours to get to CAT III. He stated he would suspect that an average intermediate skier probably skies five hours a day, He explained the trans mountain route they would have to take, He stated if V A wants to build CAT III they sould be allowed to go ahead, He spoke to the logging road up shrine pass from Red Cliff, He questioned how hoards of intermediate skiers will do it. He introduced charts into the record as an exhibit. He spoke to the total sales last year as being 663 million dollars. He spoke to the fact that Slifer Smith FramptonIV A is proud to boast the majority of those sales, The charts were labeled as exhibit 10. Pete Feisman, representing ACT, stated they are not an anti growth group but they are deeply concerned by the pace and type of growth, He spoke to the additional skiing and believes it to be unnecessary, He believes that this may now be used by V A as a key amenity for real estate sales, They are suspicious of their real motives, They urged the Board to take no action unless V A agrees to limit all access to the new resort area unless they access from the current ski runs, He knows this is not legally binding on the Board but believes they will not build if they do not have the support of the Board and the people. He stated it is hard to see how they can move ahead and honor 1 Z puq ~AUq A~ql ~Wn l~AO P~lUlS ~H 'WnlU!W JO UMOl ~ql U! IUllOd U 13umnd pUB 19dUd ~ql U! 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P~lS;:l1313nS;:lH 'dldogd gql OllU~Wl!WWO::> s,uollV urnPV BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS EAGLE, COLORADO RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS FORM 50 HOECKEL'S 387869 meetings and discussed portals, Never has the Town of Minturn asked that a portal be put in the Minturn valley. He handed out copies of a deposition made by Paul Testweid in another legal matter, This is public record, He spoke to pages 49 -52 in the lower right corner. On page 50 line 24 he was asked if they could run a gondola from Game Creek to the top, He spoke to the size of the expansion, that being twice the size of Keystone, When asked about running a lift from BC to Minturn he stated it is viable and doable and it could be done with a gondola, He stated there are plans in existence to do this by running gondolas to Beaver Creek, Vail and Game Creek. He stated they have considered it and put it away over years. They are not proposing it will happen right now, They believe there is a strong probability it will happen in the future, He agrees with Mr. Beck from Red Cliff, He drew their attention to a letter received by the Board from the EP A and the effects on real estate to Red Cliff, Minturn and other private land and the cumulative impacts that are likely to happen. He spoke to the use of water and the fact that V A is trying to take away the Minturn water rights, He stated he has been told that upper management of V A has said that Minturn will sell the water to Aurora or Colorado Springs, The ski company has filed action in water court to take Minturn's water rights away, They are having a hard time meeting minimum reserves, They oppose this action, Herman Stauffer a resident of Vail, stated it would be nice to go back to the time when they knew Pete Seibert. Things have changed a lot, Mr. Staufer stated VA is now Vail Resort Company. He stated there are still nice people working for them but the change that has occurred is their purchase of the other resorts. It is the people back east who own the company, He stated they have seen the changes but not as quickly than has happened with the "boys from back east". He stated the company invested millions to build Disney W odd on land they have gotten for free. The land is leased for skiing and forest related activities, He stated a gondola and dinner at night are not ski related activities, They boast taking 2000 people up on the mountain at night and are taking them away from the people who have worked for years to make a business in this valley, They are taking the monies out of the village without paying sales tax, Everyone is effected by it. We don't know what will happen when that lift goes in, Maybe there is or maybe there isn't real estate but last week they had dozens of sheets of paper to mitigate, If there are no problems, there is no mitigation, The Board has a big club on environmental issues, We are talking about the human species, how they will live and exist in the future. He stated a miner told him there are thousands of caves under there, He spoke to the problems of clean up in Minturn, Listen carefully to staff, they are the professionals, they have seen and can tell the problems, There shouldn't be a restaurant, roads cut, trees cut, landscape disturbed, If skiing has been flat and real estate escalated, they can be required to build with helicopters. He asks the Board make not a political decision but one they can be proud of, They can slow down the development. Chairman Johnson asked about V A not competing and not paying sales tax, They do pay a state fee to the Forest Service and have a tax included in the lift ticket. Andy Daly, representing Vail Associates, stated they pay 4% lift ticket and county and state sales tax. Jonathan Staufer, a lifelong resident, spoke to the ski area as a golf course, He referred to the Vail Valley times today and that VA is now planning to develop a golf course saying they don't plan on building real estate there, He spoke to the big picture and Mr. Mandrel's presentation last week. He spoke to the forest service not looking at off site impacts, He spoke to 6 million board feet of lumber being clear cut. He spoke to the destruction of the habitat and the extinction, He stated the lynx is crucial. He referred to the ski numbers being down 10 to 12%, He spoke to their lack of employees and that people are turned away at the Cook Shack because no one was available to wait on them. If this is truly about skiing then find the staff to service what is there, He spoke to the option to buy the private land that surrounds the expansion. This project will spur more growth, He stated most visitors come here to escape the building, He suggested gated communities are mutually exclusive, They say the impact will be minimal but it will increase visitor impacts, The big picture is that the EP A study is worth nothing if it does not take into consideration the off site impacts, Dick Brooks thanked the Board for allowing him to speak to the concerns he has with CAT III and the environmental impacts. He suggested if there was no private land around this proposal, they could do what ever they choose to do, They have 6000 acres and could proceed with no further approvals, They can come back with 368 units with no further review. He suggested the restaurant, though it must come back for a 1041 will not draw a very big crowd. He spoke to the master plan and that the restaurant is proposed to be right in the elk calving area, The restaurant is not located next to any lifts, You have to ski 1 and lIz miles to get there, It is out of the way from everywhere and exploits the area, He spoke to the proposed facilities at the tops of the lifts where there are views and with far less impacts, He stated putting in the restaurant, roads, etc will be destructive, Along Two Elk Creek 3 17 U~Z!l!::> ~lU10dlO::> ItlJl~pUOM U gq ol Y A punoJ suq puu t961 U! ~l~q ~urn::> ~q P~lUlS 'lU~P!S~l u~.rn 1J01D IU~N '~A!lU13~U ~q mM SS;:l::>::>U uo ~AUq mM l! sp~JJ~ ~ql puu su~.rn 13U!AIU::> :>Yl~ su pglS!1 duw ~ql uo su~.rn ~.rn gl~ql P~lUlS !:>ysIO)[OS '.IW 'I Aln[ Ol 1 AUW 13U!SOP U~lU ~ql p~y!.rnp uosuqO[ UUUll!Uq;) '~u!l ~ql MU1P Ol ~W!l S! l! 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BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS EAGLE, COLORADO RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS FORM 50 HQECKEL'S 387869 and partner to the families year after year. He stated he went to the environmental hearings held in Denver two to four years ago, This plan is much more environmentally sensitive, He believes that an intermediate skier loves going from the bottom of Vail Mountain to the edge to China Bowl. He believes there is no other terrain like that. He spoke to the housing and the increase in housing and the investments they have made, He stated the state of Colorado spends little on tourism, He applauds his friends who have been with V A, he fishes with them, hunts with them, and they love the outdoors and their environment. He supports CAT III and believes they should keep the promise made years ago, Dave Kenney, area resident, stated he moved here in 1982 went to school here and has come back to teach, He questioned if whether or not being able to ski thousands of acres is worth the destruction of the environment. He stated expansion only makes this a flattening of the ski trade and more of real estate, He spoke to the loss that Eagle Valley has experienced over the years. He suggested the sense of community is the haves and the have nots, He no longer sees the valley he came to, He opposes this expansion on many levels and stated Vail is less of a town and more of ski mountain than a shopping mall. It is a destination resort for the wealthy, The Vail Town Council received 380 comments on this expansion, 375 were against. He spoke to the letters to the editor and those in this chamber voicing their opposition, He spoke to the quote on the outside of the Eagle County building, He asked the council to follow the lead of the constituents, Ginny and Doug Maxfield passed saying their statements had been reviewed, Ron Riley stated he has lived here for quite awhile and is an independent business man, He stressed the word independent. He knows V A people but does not work for them. He stated his opinions and his point of view are his and his alone. Mr. Riley stated he remains very passionate to the mountain skiing whenever possible, He stated last Tuesday and today he sat in the back seats and by shear numbers he was surrounded by those who oppose it. He stated he admires and is very impressed with the sincerity that the opposition speaks, These people are committed, they are sincere and they feel passionately about their point of view, He knows a lot of those people, Joe and Herman Staufer are certainly qualified to speak on issues in the Vail Valley, He stated he doesn't agree with them, He thinks the project is a good project and should be supported, He is not suggesting that these people should go away, He feels they provide a valuable service and attack any weaknesses. His reaction to their points of concern is first the overall environmental impact. He spoke to the young lady who spoke last week and her asthmatic condition, He stated he can't connect with what she said to CAT III. He stated the amount of studies were complete, have been scrutinized and are well examined proposals, He suggests they be reminded in the summer when hiking in east Vail, within ten to twenty minutes you are in the wilderness. He said looking at the big picture he believes the environmental impacts are minimal and not significant enough to out weigh the positives of the project, He questioned the remarks that the FS failed to do their job, He doesn't buy into that, The FS people are not into it for the money, they have ajob to do, They also have ajob to make the best possible utilization of public lands, CAT III will provide far more joy if it is done right. Another major concern expressed is the potential tie in to a land sale, He stated the safe guards for irresponsible development are well in place. It took 11 years to renovate Vail's ugliest building, The probability of that happening are relatively and significantly remote, The pathway for development has been down 1-70, The hurdles they will have to overcome are enormous, It is so far from being realistic, he asks them to ignore it. Another major concern is the implication that these are bad people, They are big, they are powerful and they are a significant influence in the valley. People don't like big things, He doesn't think that this evidence exists. He suggested the effort to put Adventure Ridge in was to add a facility for the guests and tourists and to fill a void, He can't buy it. It is a good facility, Until there is concrete evidence to the contrary, he will continue to support them, He reflected on the mountain back in 1969 and the mountain as it was then, Ifthey had stopped the development back then, there wouldn't be a Beaver Creek, an Avon, a concern put on by BRAVO, The net result is many people wouldn't be here, He suggested they shouldn't confuse getting bigger with getting better. This is a world class area, He spoke to Ford Fricks presentation last week. Growth is not coming from adding new and valuable ski terrain, The issue is making it better, He asked what has been the catastrophic impact of China Bowl. There have been none, He spoke to competition, a better product for skiers, The need to be competitive. If it's a bad proposal, fight it and future proposals, He thinks this is a good project and strongly urged the Board to give it their support. Ron Mitchell a resident of Edwards though previously a fifteen year resident on Minturn, spoke to the unbridled growth and the threat to the old growth forest. The communities of Minturn and Red Cliff have major concerns as well. 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S!q.L '~l~q gA!1 Ol S~::>Uld JO lno 13u~uuru ~.rn A~ql p~w~::>uo::> S! ~q pUB SlOl!S!A mo lOJ IU!::>~ds S! n 'WlllU!W OlU~ 13U!013 :>YI~ JO sp.rn~q ~qllno 13u!lu~od SAofu~ ~q puu WS!mOl puno.rn ~AIOA~l AlunO;) ~ql pUB u~.rn S!ql P~lUlS ~H 'u~.rn SS~WgPl!M ~ql JO l.IU~q ~qllno In::> mM III .L V;) 'lu~w~AIOAU! AlunO;) lnoql!M p.rnMloJ lU~W~AOW ~ql pUB Sd ~ql Aq p~u~ppus S! ~H 'l!u A JO ~P!S lU01J ~ql wOl] lU!od S!qllu ~yq!ss~::>::>u AluO S! u~.rn ~q.L '~lUlS~ IU~l S! S!ql JO ~A!p~fqo BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS EAGLE, COLORADO RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS FORM 50 HOECKEL'S 387869 in Minturn to 400 people, He spoke to the environmental concerns. There is no sewage facility in the Two Elk valley, Building a new restaurant will be an environmental impact. He suggested there are so many hurdles that Gilman may have to cross. He questioned how effective they were in Bachelor Gulch, He suggests if someone does something multiple times and all the other pieces are there, it takes only an eight year old to see what is going on, He does not believe the FS has represented the interest of the community, He stated he is proud of this community for taking action in limiting this company, He spoke to land being a finite resource, He spoke to protecting the small towns, Val McNally, a resident of Eagle County since 1991, skies and likes to ski, She doesn't believe you have to be bigger to be better. She believes there are employee problems and a shortage of staff. She is concerned with the demising lands and asks the Board to look at the off site impacts. She loves Minturn, Red Cliff and Shrine Pass and wants to see them stay that way, Jim Roberts, long time resident of Eagle County, thanked Ron Riley in mirroring his points in support of CAT III, Karl Foland, a Vail resident, spoke to the agreement and the requirement to have an agreement with the CDOW, He spoke to the effects on lynx and its habitat. Karl is a professional skier who has been hired by companies like VA for his expertise. He has a degree, Austrain degree, that is applicable, He stated when V A started looking in the back he lead V A representatives into the areas to do their study. He was discouraged by VA and went on his own to look at CAT III, He stated he sat and watched dog families travel to the east and to the west. There are the biggest populations of snow shoe hares. He agrees with staff and the recommendation of the downsizing. He spoke to the need for more reliable ski conditions and the unavailability of the back bowls for snow conditions, He spoke to the high exposure to wind in many areas. He stated the bowls very early in the winter create heat and the snow conditions go adverse very early. This will be exaggerated and can provide for greater avalanche danger. He stated almost all existing runs in the back are not considered intermediate because they are not groomed, Extensive grooming will be needed, He questioned if the 71 employees includes the additional snow cat drives, This will cause for greater environmental impacts, Unanswered questions are those of cloud seeding to fill the valleys early in the season, There are suggesting that cloud seeding can have some dangerous effects, With it is the use of chemicals on the streets by CDOT as they do now, There are so many things that happen that are not controlled, He stated the 1986 resolution speaks to this being in the best interest of the publics health safety and welfare, He urged the Board to downsize, He read from a letter he wrote to the DOW and Mr. Warren Cronkie and the change of his wording after a meeting with V A. Mitigation is not always working, He spoke to the closed wildlife area in Matterhorn and the skiers using the area and effecting the winter range of elk. Mitigation is not working in Arrowhead. The FS has failed to mitigate in our area, He spoke to the bike path off Eagle's Nest Ridge. The bike riders are using the Eaglebaun and using it for downhill travel. He asked them to not make any decisions without reviewing both on site and off site impacts, Jill Kovacevich, area resident, suggested she had saved the best for last. She stated her remarks are as a resident of Eagle County and she is a skier. She stated the economics of skiing is what keeps her here, She stated many of the comments are concerns with growth, That is not the issue they are looking at tonight. The resolution of 1986 left only discussion on the environmental issues, They would have to base denial on great findings of environmental harm, She spoke to the balancing act between the need and reality, When looking at just the legal issues, her opinion as a skier is that she finds this mountain being the best mountain she has every skied, She has skied CAT III in the late season in April. Whether it will increase skiers or increase money is not our decision, She spoke to the elk and the population problem that exists, She spoke to a planned move initialization, For next year you can shoot bulls or cows, She likes the idea of the reintroduction of lynx, She has hiked the Two Elk trail and stated it is very busy, Without saying it is a fault of the FS, she likes the idea of a managed area, She spoke to the development of the Gilman property and if it is a good area, it will be developed without CAT III. Bill Wilto, a County resident for a long time, stated he has many friends who are against CAT III and hopes they will respect him as he does them, He spoke to the Gilman parcel and asked how many can remember there were 40,000 people living in Red Cliff. Skiing is a clean industry as opposed to mining, More than 55% of the people who move here are other than skiers. He stated it is unfortunate that CAT III is the reason we have problems in Eagle County. He suggested this should be the catalyst. Rick McCutcheon, an Eagle Vail resident since 1975, stated he has worked for V A form time to time, He and his wife Pam are skiers and they are concerned with the crowds on Vail Mountain, They know that within a two hour drive from Vail Mountain there are vacant parcels approved for development. 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M~!Al~lU! suo.rny urnpy ~ql Ol ~:>yods ~H 'l!Ull~d gql ;:l:>yOA~l Oll;)MOd ~ql suq mlS AlunO;) ~q.L 'p~u~dduq 19A~U suq l! pUJ ~ql pUB uuld UO!lUllodsUUll pUB 13U!:>ylUd gql Ol ~:>yods gH 'uuld .rn~A ~AY ~ql JO :>y::>uI ~ql puu ~mlUu lunld~::>uo::> dqlJO IUAOlddu dql pUB uopnlos~l 9861 ~ql Ol ~:>yods 'lU~P!S~l u~.rn 'PU~lS 1.rn3 'lU~WU01!AU~ l~JUS U dp!AOld pUB lU~wdopA~p ~ql ~AOlddu Ol w~ql p~:>ysu BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS EAGLE, COLORADO RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS FORM 50 HOECKEt:S 387869 economIC Impacts. He spoke to wildlife, Mr. Mandel read quotes from various sources that were submitted for the record. Mr. Mandel suggested they listen to the experts and the scientists, Commissioner Phillips asked the FS about the lynx and the lynx habitat and if they can be introduced into the area. Dr. Roy Hugie reviewed his resume and credentials, He stated they own a ranch in British Columbia to which they lease the trapping rights, He stated they bought the ranch in 1978 and take about four lynx every winter. In regards to Commissioner Phillips question, the fact is CAT III isn't the greatest habitat nor is Colorado in general. He spoke to their dependence on snowshoe hares, He suggests there is habitat there but it will never be tremendous. He questions whether there are lynx there now. He suggested they don't know. People have looked and some believe they are there, In 1989 there was a track they assume was lynx, Can they be there if there is a reintroduction? He stated if you a bring a species into an area where the prey species aren't abundant they will move or die, Specialists are real iffy on this however they can produce snowshoe hare habitat. Commissioner Gates spoke to the snowshoe hare and infections that affect rabbits, He stated snowshoe hare are subject to decease and density control. He stated they build up and fall back. He stated the lynx, coyotes and bobcats fall right behind the cycle, He suggested since they have stopped trapping the coyotes the competition has become greater, Mr. Hugie stated there has been . . ht by many people on this project about lynx, There is a predator complex, ~' ''', Chairman Johnson spoke to t ~ .aJ.'.~ng abitat and the disturbance after the 1992 report about lift 21. Mr. Hugie stated they are now ,0: abo where they were. He stated elk are adaptable and the numbers seen are virtually identical prior to const ' " the lift. Tom Allendar, Vail Associates, stated they have received a report that elk habitat is 100% or better since the lift went in. He spoke to the professor and the studies done, Mr. Hugie suggested they ask for the sequence of copies, Chairman Johnson asked about the recommendations to stay out of Pete's Bowl. Mr. Hugie stated they addressed that extensively by doing surveys of the wetlands, He stated to go from where they are to 1/20 of an acre is really something. Chairman Johnson asked if the terrain is more intermediate or advanced, Mr, Hugie stated it is more advanced and not the best for grooming. Chairman Johnson asked about the compaction issue, Mr. Hugie stated the lynx is a specialist and that is another reason for staying out of Commando bowl and West Super Bowl. Vail would want to have control for enforcement of closure, Chairman Johnson spoke to the Army Corps of Engineers statement about the level of development. They suggested it will attract people, even if not open, into the elk calving habitat. Mr, Hugie stated that is one of the reasons the purpose and need has been challenged and perhaps one of the reasons they are willing to reevaluate it. Commissioner Gates asked about people coming up through Shrine Pass and other areas, Mr. Hugie stated for this area to be truly effective the closure should be more widespread and more universal and although it is a penalty for the public not to use this, it is a recommendation they are making more and more often, He spoke to other EIS area projects he has worked on. Tom Allendar stated they will fund a forest service employee to monitor and control. They will fund and agree to fund additional education so the public will know why trails are closed, Mr. Hugie stated they will also do signage. Chairman Johnson suggested in the future they get rid of the acronyms which would make the process easier. He stated they have also seen that because everything is so fragmented it would be nice to have the public hearings where the public is, He spoke to the recommendation from the DOW to allow for no direct connection between private land and public land. Mr. Kroenke suggested a ski type connection is a forgone conclusion, They would have to amend their plan and go through an environmental review process, Chairman Johnson stated one of the concerns expressed is the development within the area and wonders if they are talking about 1 per 35 they are talking about 386 some units, He spoke to the zoning in Gilman and the number of units, He suggested those won't come under County review, Mr, Kroenke suggested there is a Forest Service regulation they would have to factor in, 9 01 ~~ :lSgllY '8661 '€Z q::>.rnw moo p~umofpu SUM 13U!l~~W ~ql p.rnos: ~ql ~lOJ~q lq~nOlq ;:lq Ol Ss~u!snq l~qlltlJ ou 13U!~q ~l~q.L 'qlOI Eldy Aq ~SUOdS~l S!q l!wqns mM ~q P~lUlS ppUBW 'lW '~SUOdS~l U~WlM lnoqu p~:>ySU A~q.L 'P~l~pU~l ~q mM UO!S!::>~P U qlOZ ~ql 'Aupsmq.L 'lU~S~ld ~q mM ~~U13!S~P U 10 :>yl~p ~ql mOllU::> MOUS ~ql U! pglS~1313ns gZlP~ Ul!f '~ldo~d 17 1 Ol Z 1 ~:>yUl uu::> A~ql ~l!S luumUlS~l ~qllsnf S! l! J! 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